Rymans with ACL problems?

[Firelight Setters]

Hi all.  I was just reading on another board where yet another person posted that their dog was just diagnosed with a torn crutiate ligament of the knee, a serious injury and expensive repair.  It happened to be a Brittany.  I often read of ACL injuries and surgeries in a variety of breeds but it occurs to me that I have not heard of any in a ryman.  Has anyone here had ACL injury with a ryman?  I’m just curious.  

[fmdunstan]

A friend of mine has a female DeCoverly setter that tore her cranial crutiate ligament (CCL) when she jumped from the ground to the back of a vehicle after a day of hunting. It was an expensive operation costing between 3 and 4 thousand dollars, but it was successful and she regained full use of the leg.  My only other experience with a ryman type setter limping and not using a rear leg was this summer and fall. I have a 2 and 1/2 year old female from a breeding of my Setter Hills male to a friend’s DeCoverly female (not the female above with the torn CCL). Bella started limping and holding up a rear leg after a good woods run. It went away after a few days of rest.  When it happened again a few weeks later I took her to the Vet and after moving the joint (looking for the drawer effect) he indicated that their maybe some damage but suggested we put her on medication to reduce swelling and rest her (as little physical activity on the rear leg as possible) for a month. I did that and she started using the leg within a week. I started hunting her in Dec. after about six our seven weeks of rest and she has had no lameness or favoring of the rear leg since the treatment. So at this point I don’t know the extent of her original CCL problem if it was that, except to say that I am keeping a close eye on her and as of now with a month of work she is showing no sign of it reoccurring. I do appreciate my Vets advise to give Bella and her injury some time to recover naturally before we consider CCL surgery.  Your inquiry above suggests that problems with CCL injuries in breeds maybe genetic is that right?

[October Setters]

There have been a couple of ACL injuries in dogs from our litters, and we hear about them occasionally. Doesn’t seem to be rampant in most lines, but definitely are some out there.
I like the advice to give it a chance to heal before jumping into surgery too. FWIW, I knew a top ultramarathon runner (100 mile mountain races) who had a completely ruptured ACL and didn’t know it until someone practiced doing MRIs on his knees. I’m not suggesting it’s wrong to do the surgery, but maybe the body sometimes has a natural way to deal with injuries. Probably is a genetic predisposition at least some of the time. The risk for cruciate ligament injuries also goes up if you spay or neuter. Lisa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1557

[Firelight Setters]

I am not knowledgeable enough to say if there is a genetic component to knee injuries or not: I have read studies that suggest it but without knowing more I would not state that cause.  I have read about the early spay/neuter connection that October references above.  What I wonder is, if perhaps more than a genetic component, if the injury is conformation related and of course conformation is inherited.  I have seen some articles that suggest that improper angulation in the stifle (knee area of rear leg) puts undue stress on the joint: both too little and too much angulation perhap makes the joint less stable.  I am simply trying to learn more about knee injuries since it is reported so often.  Thankfully I have not had any ACL injuries in my rymans: many years ago I did have a Gordon injure her ACL and looking back she had quite a bit of rear angulation.  And many of the other field bred dogs that I see reported to have ACL injuries are quite straight in the rear.  Most rymans appear to have moderate rear angulation – not show dog overdone but also not poker straight – so does this result in fewer injuries?  Just trying to learn.    

[October Setters]

Angulation is a very plausible cause (or a genetic predisposition). That might be supported by the higher incidence in spayed/neutered dogs- if the neuter was done before maturity (I don’t know if there is any data differentiating between early and later spay/neuter on this). Without normal hormones the growth plates in the bones close late, so they get longer than they were genetically programmed to be. The angles of the joints are not what they would have been and the soft tissues don’t change to compensate for the longer bones. The angulation could also be really thrown off if the hormones are removed when some growth plates have closed, but others haven’t. That’s one theory I’ve read anyway. Another is that neutered dogs are at a higher risk for obesity, which is in turn associated with cruciate ligament injuries. Is it possible that lack of hormones causes weaker soft tissues too? Only guessing that could be a possibility.

There is no good study I’m aware of, but ancedotally there is apparently some evidence that the incidence of hip dysplasia is higher in early spayed/neutered dogs.

Lisa

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